I really don’t know Cheetah Chrome. Yeah, I saw him in the Dead Boys quite a few times, including many shows opening for the Damned, and a couple of the Johnny Blitz benefits at CB’s. Then there was the Skels, when Julia Masi and I interviewed him and hung out with the band for an afternoon, with Julia taking photos of them on St. Mark’s Place. Nancy Foster and I also saw him pair up with John Spacely at the Johnny Thunders memorial in the early ‘90s. It’s been more than a dozen shows, and we’re Facebook friends, but I really don’t know Cheetah Chrome.
Thanks to his new (and hopefully first) autobiography, A Dead Boy’s Tale: From the Front Lines of Punk Rock , just released by Voyageur Press, I have a better idea of the man behind the blazing guitar.
Despite a long history of erratic behavior and substance abuse, Cheetah’s still here… well, in Nashville, anyway. Many of the people discussed in the book are not, such as Stiv Bators, Peter Laughner, Johnny Thunders, Joey Ramone, Hilly Krystal (and his dog Jonathan), Ron Ashton, John Spacely… Fortunately, his synapses survived as well, enough to write an autobiography on his life-thus-far.
The book is dense as he describes growing up in a poor area of Cleveland, as he turns from orange haired tyke to teen, getting in and out of trouble, and one can argue that the detail is perhaps too much (hell, everyone really wants to hear those back stage and road stories, right?), but I argue that Cheetah cleverly sews a solid picture of what he is to be, prefacing his rise to relative prominence by describing his finding of music as a force, his various guitars, and the early hints of indulgences.
[Dead Boys during Blitz Benefit at CBGB's]
On the other hand, I found the last quarter of the book to be a bit thin, without mention of some of his work, like with the Skels (other than in the preface), focusing more on his fighting addiction than making music. Yeah, it’s in there, but as he made music a hobby rather than a career (his description) at one point, for his own health, he talks more about his life off the road than on. Perhaps he thought we would be more interested only in his earlier work? Or maybe the book company gave him a limit of pages? It’s possible that he was zonked out and just doesn’t remember that period well?
But don’t get me wrong, this work keeps the reader interested from beginning to end, and I am hoping that the less detailed spots are just lead-up to the next book (From a Dead Boy to a Live Man, may I suggest as a title, with a firm nudge and smile?). And rather than just whining about his addictions or glorifying them (like Jim Carroll’s Basketball Diaries), Cheetah’s approach is just to talk as himself, without trying to justify or damn his actions and experiences much. It’s a brave stance, and one that should be applauded.
The key focus of the book is from Rocket From the Tombs, through especially his Dead Boys period in the ‘70s. There is lots of Pete Moon level machismo bravado, destroyed hotel rooms, and sexual hijinks, much of it fuel by, well, you know. Lots of it will make you laugh, some of it will make you wince, and, well, other than the performances, may make you glad to be reading it from a distance of time. I remember being backstage at CBGB’s in 1977, for example, talking to the Dead Boys, and keeping my finger over the mouth of my beer as they were infamous for peeing in any open drink they could find, in good fun of course.
While Cheetah may not have the lyrically poetic background of a Carroll (I’m happy to say), he certainly is a fine writer and a strong wit, while describing his life. He is blunt, takes blame where it is his, rarely makes apologies, and even makes his ex-, the strong-willed Gyda Gash, look favorable despite their famously volatile time together. When he doesn’t like someone, however, he also does not hold back, such as the producer of the Dead Boys’ second LP, a colossal failure, the legendary (and wrong choice) Felix Pappalardi (who was later shot to death 5 years later by his wife).
It is ironic that Slash would supply the quote on the cover, rightfully stating Cheetah’s contribution to rock’n’roll. Their biographies are actually quite similar in thread (though Cheetah’s does not bludgeon the language with numerous repitions, as Slash does with “all things considered…). They are both from rough neighborhoods and family life, found solace in sex and drugs and music (specifically on guitar), are quite frank about their excesses, and have achieved a modicum of success. It’s true that Slash’s star rose higher, but honestly, if I had a choice between “Welcome to the Jungle” and “Sonic Reducer,” the latter would win every time. Cheetah intrigues me more and his book is definitely more satisfying (I will keep this one, and have just sold Slash’s hardcover at a garage sale for $1, if that helps give you an idea).
[At the Johnny Thunders memorial]
There are some cool B&W photos throughout (I’ve included a couple of my own here, that are not not in the book, so there), and the pages, well, they just fly by.
This is a joy to read, and I cannot recommend it enough to anyone who is interested in an early view of what would become punk rock and arguably, in the Dead Boys’ case, proto-hardcore. I want to personally thank Cheetah for being so forthcoming, bringing me joyous hours listening to him play, getting the chance to read about his life, and for being true to who he is, whether it’s in a pharmaceutical haze of his early days or his straight living now.
After you finish reading this, get Young, Loud and Snotty and blast it, and check out some of his other contributions (a discography would have been a nice addition, but here is one online: discogs.com/artist/Cheetah+Chrome).
Finally, I want to add that the forward to the book by Legs McNeil is a fun read not just because he was there and is a punk “name,” but he sets up, through personal experience, a view into Cheetah’s mindset.
And check for Cheetah’s new band, Batusis (with Sylvain Sylvain) who are touring.
The following interview with Tom Verlaine was originally published in Big Star magazine, issue #1, dated May 1977. It was conducted by Bernie Kugel, and reprinted here with his kind permission. I have left the text the way Bernie originally had it (cleaning up some typos kinds of things), changing only the way the names are presented in the Q&A (e.g., “Tom” rather than “T.V.”) for clarity. Text added by me in 2010 is in [brackets].
The esoteric level of television was lost on me to some extent in the mid-70s, but even so, there were a band a saw quite a few times back then, and enjoyed the experience nonetheless. My favorite live song of theirs, after “Little Johnny Jewel,” was the cover of Dylan’s “Knockin’ On Heaven’s Door,” in an extended version they had made their own, much as Patti Smith had done with “Gloria.” This was around the time Richard Hell had just left the band.
I was sort of there the night Bernie Kugel interviewed the band. Well, I was at CBGB’s, saw the show, but I hung out with drummer Billy Ficca while Bernie was interviewing Tom (for privacy reasons). I can’t remember I talked with Billy about all that time, during the early sound check period before the doors to the club officially opened, but that’s not the point here.
Television, of course, is part of the reason there was a CBGB’s, and their history is well chronicled elsewhere (in many different places), so on with the interview. – RBF, 2010 Bernie Kugel: Would you think of Television ever going on television? Tom Verlaine: No, I don’t want to do TV at all. Fact is, a lot of groups ruin their own live performances by playing TV because everybody sees them on TV and they’re not going to pay $6.00 for a concert if they can see ‘em like that. They might check ‘em out if they’ve never seen ‘em, but if they see ‘em and didn’t like ‘em, they’re not going to pay money for the concert, see? That’s why a lot of people don’t… Blue Oyster Cult don’t do TV for that reason…. A lot of groups are very smart in not doing TV… I wouldn’t mind doing a three-minute spot if I got my own video guy and did it my way, but usually the sound on TV is crummy and you got these asshole cameramen doing psychedelic shit with the lenses while you’re playing. It’s just silly.
Bernie: Would you say you like jazz more than rock…? Tom: No, no… not by any means. I mean I like all kinds of music, but I’m not hooked on any kind of music, so to speak. Like I don’t sit around and play KISS records all day long. But I do like everything; all kinds of music.
Bernie: How does the writing of a Television song come about? Tom: I get the words… sometimes get the words, sometimes you get the riffs first, rehearse and throw this around, and I might have ideas for guitar lines… show [guitarist Richard ] Lloyd something like this, he take it and maybe improve it. Same with Fred [Smith, bass]… Fred will come up with a line or I’ll come up with a bass line and he’ll take it and make something better out of it… Billy [Ficca, drums] will make something better out of it… It’s like in any group really. It’s like one guy who writes the material and has the basic idea for the arrangement and you do it for a week and throw it around and everything falls into place. If it doesn’t you find out about it when it’s too late.
Bernie: Would you think there would come a day when Richard or Fred or Billy would be writing songs for the group? Tom: It’s sorta not how we operate, ya know… exactly… it could happen.
Bernie: Do you foresee Television lasting a long time? Tom: Oh yeah.
Bernie: Do you see people in the band going into solo careers shortly or anything like that? Tom: No, I think we’re getting closer as the years go on, so to speak.
Bernie: What’s your favorite types of guitars? Tom: I’ve always liked Fender guitars; they have a real juicy sound, you know? They’re not great for rhythm, they‘re real good for lead. They don’t stay in tune either, though they’re still worth it somehow. I might end up playing a Gibson because it stays in tune and in a big space it makes a bigger sound; it doesn’t get lost in the room. But in a studio I like to play a Fender.
Bernie: In The New York Rocker, you were explaining about how drugs help you expand yourself…? Tom: Oh yeah…
Bernie: Do you still experiment with drugs a lot? Tom: No, not much at all. I wouldn’t say really at all. Drugs are like… if you’re intuitive about things or something and you take drugs, they make you believe in your own intuitions more ‘cause there’s something very nebulous about drugs, and there’s something unspeakably true about what you go through with any given drug.
Bernie: What’s this about Theresa Stern (authoress of a book of poems, Wanna Go Out, credited by many to be the early works of Verlaine and Richard Hell, currently denied by Hell in recent interviews)? Tom: What do you know about Theresa Stern?
Bernie: Teresa Stern is, in reality, you and Richard Hell. Tom: Who told you that?
Bernie: I’ve just sort of got the idea from everything I’ve read. Tom: I got no comment.
Bernie: One of the deep dark mysteries of Television? Tom: (laughter)… Ya see, I don’t wanna have any bad words about Hell, you know what I mean? He’s always accusing me of this and that over the years… he considers himself a founding partner in the band and I don’t even think about it. It’s like two and a half years ago. I got no opinions on it anymore and anything he wants to say, let him say, I don’t care.
Bernie: So it wasn’t exactly an amicable split when he split from the band? Tom: No, he quit and that was it, you know.
Bernie: What have you done to earn money over the past few years? Tom: I haven’t had a job since… Well, I quit the Strand Bookstore in 1970, so I haven’t had a steady job since then. At one time, I worked ten hours a week in a bakery bagging bread, shit like that, part-time job here, putting books in mailing envelopes, when I need money. After the Strand I stretched unemployment for like two years so that was real good.
Bernie: Were you doing writing when you were on unemployment? Tom: Yeah, always working on stuff…
Bernie: I remember an early [Village] Voice article that mentioned you worked on fiction a lot during those years…. Tom: I was working on some stories…
Bernie: Did these later develop into Television songs? Tom: Yeah, one of them did, a thing called “Breakin' In My Heart” that we stopped doing for a while; I think we’re gonna do it again. What I got sick of is the whole “spoken style”; I just got sick of it. I didn’t want to project that myself, so I stopped it. I wanted to make it a little more… “listenable” or something.
Bernie: Do Television practice a lot? Tom: Yeah, we really work out. When we first started we rehearsed six days a week for four months before we even played live; then we still stuck. We were awful, y’know? Now we rehearse four nights a week if we have a job or are breaking in new stuff. If we have a month of no jobs, we might rehearse three nights a week. We have problems finding a place to rehearse, though. If we get some more money… We’ll get some money with this record deal… we probably won’t get a dime after it’s all… ya know lawyers take this, and managers take this, taxes that this, producers take this… and that’s the end of it. Then you buy a new set of drums and a couple of new guitars and you have to go play live for a year.
Bernie: But if you do get some money what do you think you’ll do with it? Tom: If I had a lot of money?
Bernie: Yeah. Tom: Well, I’d get a decent place to live. You wouldn’t believe the shithole I live in. You really wouldn’t believe it. The floors are like black with shit and the windows are… the glass is ready to fall out and kill somebody in the street, like it rattles. There’s one radiator for four little rooms. In the winter, it’s like… the only thing is I haven't paid my rent since last November… I owe my landlord like $1500 and he hasn’t come after me for it, which is like a miracle ‘cause I haven't had any money this year at all really. I’ve had enough money to live on from the jobs we’ve been playing. But it’s like a miracle that my landlord hasn’t asked me for rent in almost a year.
Bernie: Do you have television in your place? Tom: I had one… I had this great little old TV, but the aerial broke on it.
Bernie: Do you watch a lot of television? Tom: No, I can’t stand it, to tell you the truth. I do find a strange thing happening though. I very rarely watch television really; I watch a movie or something, or the boxing matches, or the Olympics or something, but I noticed that five of our songs that have titles of TV shows… There used to e a game show called Prove It I think in the ‘50s… there’s a soap opera on weekday afternoons called Guiding Light and this kind of shit… I don’t look through a TV Guide to find a sing title… this kind of stuff happens…
Bernie: You have a song called “Guiding Light”? Tom: Yeah, we do. We can’t do it live ‘cause it’s so gentle that if the guitars go out of tune it ruins it… we’re going to put it on our record, though. It’s a real sweet song.
Bernie: What was it like playing your first performance in some theater in midtown Manhattan? Tom: It was just a tiny theater; it only had at the most 140 seats and it was designed for screening movies for like Federico Fellini or something. It was just a little hole in the wall, but it was very plush, very small. And they wheeled in this P.A. – it was Alice Cooper’s old P.A. – it was an enormous P.A. It was like 15 feet tall; it was just completely nuts, just crazy. We were all like nervous as hell. We played for two hours or something, it was just completely crazy, insanely loud for a room… the room was like a third the size of this club. The P.A. was at least as big as the one that’s in here now, maybe bigger. Plus all of our equipment was completely fucked up, breaking strings on every song.
Bernie: Do you have favorite Television songs right now? Tom: I like the long ones more and more for live… I like to do long stuff. I’d stretch any song out to 20 minutes, but it’s hard to do that within a group ‘cause if not everyone’s reading each other right it just sounds fucked up. It’s like a group must have a strong leader. No group survives without a strong leader. Our drummer’s completely behind the band here, he can’t really hear anything. He has to listen to hear what’s going on. We’ve got this room down pretty good ‘cause we’ve played here [CBGBs] 200 times. It’s like playing in your living room now.
Bernie: Do you ever think that you should be doing something else other than this, like you’ve chosen the wrong profession or something like that? Tom: No, but I’ll tell you a feeling I have though, sometimes. It’s like half of me is in New York, and the other half of me is myself standing on some fertile hillside raking a lawn or something, with a real bright sky. The exact opposite of New York. It’s like completely true. It’s like simultaneous realities or something. Maybe it’s like… rock and roll is sort of self-destructive, there’s no question about it. Unless you attack it as a complete business, I guess that’s why a lot of people end up doing it. They just forget about anything but the business – just do this in the show, bring out this prop, and do this. But I’ve never approached it completely as a business. To me, it’s like an art. The whole struggle is to get the art as perfect as possible. And it is a struggle. I’m not in good shape at all. Like we had to play an hour and a half at My Father’s Place [Roslyn, NY] on Tuesday night. I get offstage, I feel like I’m gonna collapse, at the same time I’m so wired up I couldn’t fall asleep for eight hours. It’s really dangerous for your health, even if you don’t use drugs.
Bernie: Do you have favorite guitarists? Tom: I have solos that I like. I like Hendrix’s solo in “The Wind Cries Mary,” thought that was a really fantastic little short solo. I used to like John McLaughlin playing on the records with Miles Davis. He had this really beautiful tone, this silvery tone that he doesn’t use anymore. The best John McLaughlin solos are on a record called Mountain in the Clouds by a bass player called [Miroslav] Vitous. They’re the solos of McLaughlin’s I think are completely untouchably fantastic. Really insane, but perfectly in control. Just incredible. There are some solos I like. But my favorite solos are the early Kinks solos on the ’64-’65 Kinks’ “All Day and All of the Night”…
Bernie: The ones that Jimmy Page’s taken credit for and Dave Davies says he did… Tom: Nobody knows…but he was another guy I was thinking of getting as producer, Shel Talmy, who did the early Kinks and the early Who, but I hear he’s no good now that he has 16 tracks. He gets a great sound on a crummy tape machine, and he goes to 16 and he loses that. That roar, that big sound.
Bernie: Do you have favorite authors? Tom: I went through a whole period where I was really crazy about French writers like [Paul] Verlaine, [Arthur] Rimbaud, especially this guy [Gérard de] Nerval. I really like Nerval. Nerval wrote this one story that’s really great. It’s sorta the diary of a guy going crazy, so to speak. It’s a real beautiful story. Nerval did go crazy, unfortunately. I still like Persian writers, like Omar Khayyam and stuff, about the “wine”… some of those poems are real sweet.
[Handsome Dick Manitoba, Ross the Boss Funicello]Here is a two-for-one deal. FFanzeen published two pieces on the Dictators, the first in issue #3 in 1977 by Todd Abramson (who went on to publish his own fanzine, Young Fast and Scientific, and now co-owns the legendary Hoboken showcase Maxwell’s. The second is an interview at the Bottom Line by Barry Geiger, from issue #6 in 1980.
I was introduced to the Dictators by Bernie Kugel, first in vinyl, and then in person, when we saw them play at CBGB’s in 1975 (before Handsome Dick Manitoba was officially the lead singer). Over the years, I saw them a number of times, and they never, ever failed me, including the Bottom Line show where I almost killed Handsome Dick (see my previous blog from January 12, 2009). When a younger friend came over to my place duing the early ‘80s, I played him the first Dictators release, Go Girl Crazy, to which he was not impressed. I told him to give it time, and put it to a cassette. Before long, he was a huge fan, and bought all their albums (and quite generously bought me their last one). Indeed, I believe in their fan club slogan, DFFD (Dictators Forever Forever Dictators). – RBF, 2010
Part I: Dictators Can Sing!! By Todd Abramson; FFanzeen #3, 1977
So I got a frantic call from a Dictators maniac (like myself) saying they were gonna be playing at CBGB’s unannounced the following Saturday. Wow! Of course, I’m gonna go. So, in the middle of the week, I make a phone call to one of the ‘Tators themselves and he says sure, come on down, we’ll be playing at one, now leave me alone. I’m watching the Ali fight (or words to that effect). Great!
Naturally, I assumed he meant one in the morning. However, I called Miriam Linna (aforementioned Dictators fanatic) who told me Manitoba told her it’s gonna be one in the afternoon. Fantastic! A matinee performance of my fave band.
So I’m in N.Y. by noon. After listening to a few records, our motley crew heads down to CBGB’s. Hmmm, that’s strange – nobody else here? So we were laughed at and told it was at night. Well, it’s better than nothing at all.
So, eventually night comes along (as I knew it would) and it finds us listening to WCBS-FM’s usually great Saturday Night Sock Hop. Great it was that night. I’ll never forget the way they played “Surf City” and “C’mon Everybody” back-to-back. Or, “I’m so Young,” by the Students, a Billy Miller request.
Pretty soon it gets to 11 o’clock or so, and excitement is building among our gathering. So what else to do but start blasting and dancing to my all-time favorite LP, the Dictators Go Girl Crazy. Stupendous! Uh, weekend.
And the time comes and our procession heads down to the hole in the wall known as CBGB’s. Some of us paid, some didn’t (I did. Ouch!).
The Senders soon go on and play an interesting set of R’n’B-influenced rock. The highlight was a fab version of “I’m a Hog For You,” a Leiber-Stoller classic. They also did a fine version of Jimmy Reed’s “Bright Lights Big City” and a non-descript (I don’t know what it really means but it looks good, eh?) “Yakety Yak.”
Dictators are spotted, with shorter hair, Hawaiian shirts, finger fungus, and other such things. Talking w/ Adny Shernoff earlier he told me they were gonna do “Slow Death,” so I was excited as hell. Plus Mark “The Animal” Mendoza was no longer a member of the band, so Adny would be playing bass again.
Here they come… walking to the stage… get the funniest looks from, oh enuff of that. Handsome Dick dedicated the show to “his champion” Muhammad Ali. Back to Africa! Anyway, the Dictators start playing a new song destined to be on their third long-playing opus, Bloodbrothers.
Well, from the third song on, that night the Dictators were the best band I’ve ever witnessed in my life. Unbelievable! I had just seen them a month or so before at CBGB’s Theatre. To be fair, everything about the place and what happened with the groups before the ‘Tators were on was dreadful, but while the ‘Tators were definitely good, they just didn’t move me. Which was a shame. They even did stuff like “Cars and Girls,” but the magic wasn’t there.
But this night was something different entirely. It was more than magic, I can’t even explain it. Adny had told me that these were the “best, loudest, fastest, teenagiest” songs he’d ever written and yes, the new LP would be even better than the first LP. But that was just too far out, I mean, I thought how could ANYTHING be better than the first LP (that made a man outta me, by the way)? But it’s fucking true! Just check out some of these new songs. One’s called “Let’s Twist,” which you can tell how great it is by the title, but it’s even greater than that! Another song, “Minnesota Strip,” is even greater!!!
And yes, they did do “Slow Death.” And if the Flamin’ Groovies could do it better, then everybody else might as well stop making music. I mean I don’t think any band could ever be better than the ‘Tators that night. They did “Search and Destroy” great, but I sorta wish they’d drop it. I mean, let’s face it, it’s a great song and nobody’s gonna top the original.
So it was a night I’ll never forget. The ‘Tators themselves couldn’t believe it. The Handsome One said he was tired after the second song. No, not ‘cause he’s a wimp (how dare anyone even think that) but ‘cause all the songs were so fucking fast. Not mindless fast like the Ramones (who I really like but are no Dictators) or someone, but teenage, cars, girls, surfin’ beer, high school, McDonald’s Cheeseburgers fast. Go Manitoba, Go! ‘Cause that night and hopefully forever onward, the Dictators were the masters of the teenage race and everything it stood for. [Scott Kempner, HD Manitoba, Ross the Boss]Part II: The Last Big Thing: The Very Last Dictators Interview By Barry Geiger; FFanzeen #6, 1980
It seemed as though the rock press had decided to ignore the Dictator’s break-up as much as possible. Sure, all the magazines had managed to squeeze in a paragraph or so, reporting on the split, but nobody had given the Dictators the proper requiem they so greatly deserved. They were not just another rock’n’roll band – they were the ultimate rock’n’roll band.
Their 1975 album, The Dictators Go Girl Crazy, was classic rock’n’roll. It’s follow-up, 1977’s Manifest Destiny, though more sedated that Go Girl Crazy, was nevertheless a fine effort. 1978’s Bloodbrothers could have been the ‘Tators breakthrough album had Elektra/Asylum given it the proper promotion. Unfortunately, the record company lost interest and the Dictators soon found themselves without a label.
The Dictators were really frustrated. Lead songwriter, bassist and sometimes keyboard player Adny Shernoff decided that the wanted to sing his own songs, so Handsome Dick Manitoba was asked to leave. Just prior to their release from Asylum, drummer Richie Teeter left the band; he was quickly replace by Mel Anderson, formerly of Long Island’s Twister Sister (in which ex-Dictator bassist Mark “The Animal” Mendoza is now a member). Lead guitarist Ross “The Boss” Funicello later quit to join Shakin’ Street, a heavy-metal band. And what then of rhythm guitarist Scott “Top Ten” Kempner?
The ‘Tators played one of their last shows on October 20, 1978, at New York City’s Bottom Line, where this interview took place. All five ‘Tators were present at one time or another, as were Adny’s parents. For what it’s worth, here it is – unbeknownst at the time – the last Dictators interview:
FFanzeen: How did it feel playing the Bottom Line tonight? Scott “Top Ten” Kempner: No so great. I’d rather play CBGB’s. No, it was alright. It was fun; it was good. FF: Mel, how does it feel to be a Dictator? Mel Anderson: Terrific. Scott: Ha! You sure you don’t want to think about that for a while? Mel: I’ve given it some thought – and I don’t have anywhere else to go, so… FF: Why’d you leave Asylum? Scott: They were basically not doing anything for the band. They stopped working on the Dictators about a month after Manifest Destiny came out; it was a big charade after that. I guess if the record had more play on the radio, they would have gotten something started without too much work. It was a situation where nobody in the company, outside of the publicity department, understood the band or knew anything about breaking in an act that wasn’t like Linda Ronstadt or the Eagles or Queen – something you’ve heard a million times before. They thought they couldn’t do anything with us and so we didn’t want to have anything to do with them. FF: How did you feel about the way Bloodbrothers came out? Scott: It was pretty much the other extreme – from overproduced to underproduced – neither of them necessarily in a bad sense, but there was an elaborate production on Manifest Destiny, and Bloodbrothers was intentionally done “live in the studio.” It sounds like a well-done demo. We just set up and played. FF: Do you consider Manifest Destiny a sell-out after Go Girl Crazy? Scott: It was a definite reaction to failing. Go Girl Crazy was like the product of years and years of ambition and ideas and something we all wanted to do. At the time, we thought we were making the greatest, newest, the most different rock’n’roll album – the rock’n’roll album every kid wanted; they didn’t. FF: How has Bloodbrothers been doing, sales-wise, compared to the other two albums? Scott: Better. Better, but not great. It doesn’t’ get much airplay. Now that the record company isn’t interested, I’m sure it’ll get even less. FF: Why did Richie Teeter leave the band? Scott: He broke his legs and we had to shoot him [laughs]. FF: No, seriously. Adny Shernoff: He didn’t want to be in the group, so we said, “Get out of here.” Scott: He no longer wanted to do it. He had too many commitments. He had two commitments and he was too involved in the other commitment. The two worlds couldn’t meet … He made a choice between the two and that was it. [Rumor has it that the other “commitment” was his wife who told him he had to choose between traveling with the band or staying with her – Ed.] FF: How many drummers did you audition before you found Mel? Adny: One Scott: I saw Mel play in his old band, Twisted Sister. He used to wear this big rainbow-colored afro wig and he used to twirl his sticks and all these cool things. Fred Heller, Mott the Hoople’s manager after Ian Hunter quit, wanted the band Mott to do “Sleeping With the TV On” [From the album Manifest Destiny], so me and Adny, and this other guy from Queens and Mel made this demo in a friend’s basement. Mel called Adny while Teeter was telling us he was leaving and asked if we knew any bands who needed a drummer and we said, “It just so happens we do.” FF: Dick, I think you mentioned in Trouser Press that the title Bloodbrothers came from the Richard Price novel. Handsome Dick Manitoba (HD): Indirectly, juxtapositioning, yes. FF: Have you seen the movie yet? HD: No, I haven’t. Scott: I did... I didn’t like it as much as the book. [Adny Shernoff]FF: Adny… HD: Adny, here comes the hard question. FF: How do your parents feel about the Dictators? Adny: Ask ‘em. FF: Mr. and Mrs. Shernoff? Adny: [Imitating his father] “Well, at first we really didn’t think he was gonna do it, but now we have a lot more confidence. We’re glad he stuck to it” [laughs]. Mr. Shernoff: I’m glad he’s putting words in my mouth. Mrs. Shernoff: He’s making me eat my words. HD: Why? He’s still poor! FF: Did any of the Dictators ever graduate from college? HD: I did…not. Scott: Mel, did you? No? No graduates here. FF: Dick, who’s your favorite pro wrestler? HD: Jimmy Valiant, Freddie Blassie, the Sheik, Killer Kowalski… Scott: The Valiant Brothers together. They’re a team [Exit Adny’s parents] FF: Scott, I liked your Springsteen review in New Wave Rock [magazine]. Scott: Thanks. I feel like a 14-year-old kid when I listen to Bruce. Clarence is coming tomorrow night. [Clarence Clemons jammed wit the band on “What It Is” the next night. Tish and Snooky Bellomo of Manic Panic Clothing Store – ex-Sic F*cks/Pinups – sang back-up on the same song both nights – BG] FF: What other bands on the scene right now do you like? Scott: The Ramones. I love the Ramones – my favorite group. The Dead Boys, The Cramps… FF: What unsigned bands? Scott: The Cramps, Shrapnel, The Dictators.. Mel: There’s a good band called Moonbeam. I think they are really good. FF: What kind of music do you like? Mel: Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Tony Williams, Jimi Hendrix, Mott the Hoople, Bev Beven, and Electric Light Orchestra, the Move … I like everything. I like Frank Sinatra… the Wailers.
It was around this time when Handsome Dick left the dressing room to go to CBGB’s (the Police were playing). Adny was outside talking to his parents. Ross was with his girlfriend somewhere., I found myself in the dressing room with Scott and Mel, so we called it quits.
1980 Note by RBF: Good News: The Dictators have, since this article was written, gotten back together after a two-year break. The “Last Big Thing” is now Next in Line again. FFanzeen wishes to personally welcome back these top contenders to the ring, just when they were needed. Move over, here comes some gen-u-ine rock’n’roll!
[Master Race Rock, from their first album, Go Girl Crazy]
The following interview was originally published in the first issue of FFanzeen (issue dated 7/7/77).
I had done a few interviews for groups that were handled by Shelter Records, and the staff was quite excited about a new, freshman album that was about to come out by a yet-unknown Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. They gave me an advance copy of the first album, Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers. While it didn’t bowl me over, I enjoyed the quirkiness of it, a feeling which would not be repeated for following albums when the group became the musical mid-ground between John Cougar Mellencamp and Bob Dylan, both of whom would profit from Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers’ success. The first album was sharp and its minimalist production, reminiscent of the Modern Lovers’ earliest recordings. Songs were based on minor keys and about a wider range of subject matter than just “love / hate”. The two best cuts were also the two hits from the album, “Breakdown,” and especially “American Girl.”
The publicity machine let me know that Petty would be playing at CBGB and I could be on the guest list, so I headed on down to the showcase. No one that I asked was interested in going to see the weekday show with me, since Petty was a total unknown. The place was filled with suits and very few of the public, who were possibly turned off by seeing all the aforementioned corporate types, or the lack of product by the artist. They weren’t a New York band, so they had no following here. I sat in front, which was easy since the record and publicity cogs circled the bar like flies on shit. I had my instamatic camera and took some slides to record the moment.
Soon afterwards, I was able to catch Tom Petty and his band again (and again be on the guest list) for his show at the Bottom Line, where he opened for Roger McGuinn. Originally I wasn’t going to go, but I thought it would be cool to see McGuinn, whom I had never seen perform before. It is very rare to find a rock writer / critic / reviewer / fan who will admit they want to get on a band’s guest list to actually see the group sharing the bill. It was actually a strange billing since McGuinn had just released a cover of “American Girl.” Both of them sang it during their own sets (and with different arrangements).
The day after the McGuinn show, I interview Petty. I dragged Alan Abramowitz along. Petty had two interviews before mine (also college writers, I believe), until finally it was our turn into the conference chamber. You would think that for someone who was facing only his third interview, Petty would be excited and into it. Well, if he was, he sure didn’t give any indication. He just droned, in that nasal voice, and went on like we were more in his way than trying to get us on his side, something that might help get a favorable article and serve to produce fans. He sat there and talked with a monotone, giving the impression he was thinking more about doing something else, like his laundry, than being in the moment. As this interview shows, as short as it was, Petty was egocentric and self-important, even back then. When asked a question, he’d follow his own course, whether connected or not; and when asked to clarify, he’d just go on without even realizing anyone else besides his voice was in the room. All in all, he was quite boring. In fact, after a few minutes, Alan fell asleep in the corner, and began to loudly snore. I envied him. I don’t believe that Petty was purposely trying to be nasty in any way, he was just highly involved with himself. That is why I gave the piece its title.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tom Petty: A Petty Interview
Although Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers are considered a West Coast band, they have been fairly well accepted by the rockers on both coasts. They’ve played on the same bill with such groups as Blondie and the Runaways. When I interviewed them last March 8, 1977, they were playing the Bottom Line with Roger McGuinn. They had played at CBGB a few months past. They have a definite rock’n’roll sound that, to some, may take some getting into (remember the first time you heard Television?).
While doing this interview, I kept getting the feeling that, at times, Petty wasn’t listening to what either I, or he himself, was saying. You may catch this on some of the answers. Despite this, I feel that, in most cases, Petty answered to the best of his ability.
FFanzeen: With all the names for the music being played these days, what do you call what you play?
Tom Petty: We just consider ourselves a rock’n’roll band.
FF: Have you seen any other New York bands when you were here?
Petty: Yeah, I’ve seen, well, I just played in L.A. with Blondie for four nights. I saw the Ramones. I haven’t seen a lot of them but I have a friend here [in New York] at Sire Records who sends me a lot of records for me to hear so I’ve heard some of it. I’m not really aware of it. No, we’re not trying to jump in on that one. We’re a young rock’n’roll band and that’s it. Gene Benson was punk as far as – I mean, he was probably more punk than the Ramones are. So was Elvis.
FF: When you played New York, did you find that anyone got confused between Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers and [Johnny Thunders and] the Heartbreakers?
Petty: Yeah, the first time we came here we didn’t know about that band for a long time. We heard about it right before we played CBGB’s; that there was another local band called the Heartbreakers. But by that time, I said, I haven’t heard them to this day, and, well, ours is Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, and they can’t get too confused, and sorry and all that but we ain’t gonna change our name or nothing. That’s really a New York problem. It doesn’t come up everywhere.
FF: How did you like playing CBGB’s?
Petty: Good gig. When we came that time, we wanted to play the street place, you know. All I said about New York is “Alright, I’ll play there, but I don't want to go to the Bottom Line, come on with a big press party, and I hate that sort of thing. It just ain’t my nature. I’d like to play the street place where the kids go.” Went there and all the press came.
FF: You picked a bad night, a Tuesday night.
Petty: Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it. I met a lot of people here and it was a really good couple of days. I like New York.
FF: Did you like playing the Bottom Line?
Petty: Yeah, I had a great time. I think, you know, that the audience, they weren’t quite ready for what happened on the first show, for either show, but coaxed with it, ya know, they dug it. I could tell they dug it. They were with us.
FF: Are you on tour now?
Petty: I’ve been on tour about at least five weeks and I’m gonna be out for another two months. We were with the Runaways the night before we were with McGuinn. Roger was a strong influence on me when he was with the Byrds. They were some of the first records I ever bought. I met him in L.A. I like him, I really do. He’s a cool cat. No matter what he does, I dig him. He’s a legend, ya know? Roger McGuinn. I’m really going to enjoy this gig. The last night of the tour is in Long Island at some university.
FF: What was it like playing with the Runaways?
Petty: Well, we’ve only played with them once. We have another date in Cleveland. We played with them in Detroit with a band called Cheap Trick. It was just this Detroit rock show, you know, just give me blood, you know. We went down fine. It was really simple for us. I had never seen the Runaways till then. They were what you might call weird. It was kinda like a teen porn show, or something. I didn’t get to know the girls really well. I know them but I don’t know them. They just look like sex teens. They’re just some kids trying to play. They just happen to be girls. It was strange to see the guys go nuts.
FF: You’re from [Jacksonville] Florida.
Petty: That’s where I was born and raised. I haven’t lived there for ... four years. I live in L.A.
FF: How did you meet the Heartbreakers?
Petty: They’re from Florida, too. They were all in different bands. I was in a band there that got pretty popular. We came out to L.A., and got a record deal, and I quit about halfway through the album. The band broke up and the album never came out. Then I signed another record contract, sort of an artist-in-residence thing with Shelter for about three years. I would sit back and play in the studio ... Then the other guys drifted out to L.A., like Michael Campbell, the guitar player, was with me all the time. We’re playing together about five years. The rest of them just drifted out for various reasons. Through a series of chance meetings, we showed up on the same demo session and it was so good ... so we got together and we did a couple of tracks and we said all right. I went to a record company ... with my hat in my hand, “I’m joining a band, the Heartbreakers.” They were real understanding.
FF: What was the group (you came to California with) ...
Petty: The Heartbreakers.
FF: No, what group was it ...
Petty: We’ve been together now for about a year. It’s a great band. I’m still on the rush. I don’t understand how it happened or what went right. I dig this band, and I’m pretty hard on bands. No ego trips. No leader and nobody’s got more say than anybody else. It works very well.
FF: I take it you’re satisfied with the way the album came out?
Petty: For a first album, it’s pretty true to where we were at the time. It’s getting played on (W)NEW (New York) with moderate airplay. We got a single that’s a hit in England.
FF: What single?
Petty: “American Girl.”
FF: Roger McGuinn has the same single out ... are you satisfied with the way McGuinn did it?
Petty: Well, I wouldn’t have done it that way. I obviously didn’t do it that way.
FF: I haven’t heard his single yet. I heard him do it last night though.
Petty: He did it very Roger McGuinn-ish. A lot different. A lot more laid back. We do it like Bo Diddley. Roger does it a little cruizier, and he changes some of the words. When I played one day in L.A., I was teaching the song to Roger. Like, we just sat, and it was a real standoff situation. I came in and they say, ”Whoa, a real punk. What a punk.” Like Roger would call me a punk. “Who the fuck are you callin’ a punk? I ain’t no punk.” I put on my guitar and I say, “It goes like this: One, two ...” But I respect the guy a lot. He knows what he’s doin’. His audience is probably better that way, than my audience. This is really sort of a great compliment to me. I’m really second generation to Roger. I’m flattered he did it at all.
FF: What music do you listen to now?
Petty: Now? Sort of the same stuff I used to listen to. I listen to everything. I really do listen to all kinds of music. I have not heard Bruce Springsteen. I mean, I heard him once and that’s it. Right before I went on tour I listened to the Everly Brothers’ greatest hits. I listen to Aerosmith and I tend to go by tracks. The ones I listen to all the way are usually classic albums, like the Kinks. The Low album is probably a classic.
FF: What do the Heartbreakers listen to?
Petty: There isn’t really much we disagree on. Stan (Lynch, drummer) is definitely into heavy metal and Ron’s (Blair, bass) into heavy metal. Michael (Campbell, guitar) is into Stones stuff, Beatles. Ben’s (Tench, keyboards) a thousand things.
FF: Will a time come when a Heartbreaker will sing a solo?
Petty: No, I don’t think so. It might happen. If it does, it will be a group thing. I’m the lead singer because I’m the lead singer. We didn’t dye our hair, we didn’t curl it, no one did any of that. People actually ask me, “Did you dye your hair?” We’re just a straight rock'n’roll band. No smoke machines. None of that. We’re straightforward guitar, drums rock’n’roll. We’re song-oriented.
FF: What is your ultimate goal?
Petty: We want to be successful. Not just money. You know, just making a successful record and a successful show. Whatever that means, that’s what it is. I just want to be successful. I could feel successful without selling a million records.
FF: Do you see yourself branching out into other media, like television?
Petty: We ain't never gonna do no TV special. I don’t think we’d do the Midnight Special. I wouldn’t go on with one of those “Alright, the stage is gonna go upside down. Here’s this camera angle. Here’s the same old fuckin’ set we look at every week.” I would like to do a variety show. I could dig that.
FF: Do you have any hobbies?
Petty: Girls are my latest hobbies. I think that’s the Heartbreakers’ latest hobbies now-a-days. Yeah. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Perhaps it’s only my hometown pride, but I was pissed about the way Petty was dismissive about Johnny Thunders’ Heartbreakers, as well as the Ramones. Sorry, TP, but the Heartbreakers are not just a local band, and still have an international appeal that, on some level, your Heartbreakers could never reach. While Tom Petty’s band may have a wider audience demographic and sell more product, the New York Heartbreakers have influenced many more musicians, even if they didn’t have the music business industry behind them (most likely due to the industry’s fear of their unreliability and their, er, peccadilloes). Petty’s music became ever more mundane and tiresome, while Thunders’ would be innovative until he died. How many Tom Petty bootlegs compared to Johnny Thunders. And more importantly, how many people have listened to Tom Petty and wanted to play music as compared to Johnny Thunders. For both of these, I would lean toward the latter.
In retrospect, Petty comes off a bit hypocritical in the interview. He goes at length to say how he’s not in it for the money, but he’s responsible for the raising of the retail prices of records in the early 1980s. Yet, he also managed to get himself in enough debt to file for bankruptcy. He claimed money wasn’t important to him, but I guess spending it was.
I became more convinced of Petty’s shallowness – if just lack of withallness – when he appeared on one of the Friday night concert shows, the very kind he stated he’d never be on, within a year or two of his decrying the genre. And sure enough all of the weird camera angles and close-ups were on display. Most likely he thought it was a “good gig” and “dug it.”
I’m not trying to harp on Tom Petty, as I really don’t have anything against him, even though I’m not a fan (again, except that for that first album). I’m sure he’s a southern gentleman who plays a decent guitar. With his band, he’s done a lot of fine work in his career, especially backing up musicians like brother-in-monotone-nasality, Bob Dylan. What I was disturbed about was his “whatever” attitude, which made him appear so oblivious (and seemly uncaring) of what is going on around him.
On a positive note, Petty was the leading force in getting a headstone for Jackie Wilson, who had died penniless after years of being a shut-in as a result of an on-stage heart attack; so, I guess Petty does have his compassionate side, and assured himself a place in the Rock And Roll Hall of Fame and Museum in Cleveland.
[Dead Boys during Blitz Benefit at CBGB's]
[At the Johnny Thunders memorial]
